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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

I am trying to figure which vehicle to buy (Hyundai or Kia). I am mostly interested in their Semi-Autonomous Driving Technology,
I just had a chance to test drive a Kia Telluride. I shot a detailed video of it's systems in use:


Can anyone confirm that this is also EXACTLY how it works on a Palisade?

THANKS!
 

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FWIW, Telluride and Palisade are "badge-engineered" siblings made by the same company (Hyundai owns Kia, for "most" intents and purposes) and beyond aesthetics and visual differences, the engineering and technology should be identical.

Judging from the video, Palisade smart cruise control works 100% identically. We even have the same little visual feedback icons on the dashboard the Telluride does.
 

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The Palasade I drove in Canada would warn you approximately every 30 seconds to put your hands on the steering wheel or it would disconnect the systems.
 

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The telluride and Palisade HDA seem to be the same thing. There may be a couple of seconds difference in how long you can go hands free before the warning.
Only thing I miss would be the chance to set the auto speed control, maybe 3 to 5 seconds over the posted speed and still have it control the speed
 

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The Palisade manual states that the system will warn you to place your hands on the steering wheel "after a few seconds". It specifically doesn't mention what a few is or give any numbers, and I think that is intentional.

From my test drives (getting my Palisade delivered next week), I think I got the hands warning after around 15 seconds or so, but that was in non-HDA mode (e.g. only smart cruise + lane centering). A confirmed benefit of HDA, but one that is never stated in the manual, is that it extends the time the vehicle will auto-resume from a complete stop from a few seconds to around 30 seconds, meaning that in bumper-to-bumper highway traffic, you won't need to resume the SCC system (either via steering wheel button or accelerator) every time you come to a full stop.

Based on that, it's also possible that HDA extends the time you can have your hands off the wheel before it warns and ultimately disengages.

But a few other possibilities:
  • On straightaways, when you wouldn't need too much steering even without the assisted driving, the system might not be able to accurately detect that your hands are not on the wheel. My understanding is that the detection monitors the torque or pressure you exert on the wheel to determine if your hands are on it or not. Perhaps those detection algorithms are currently more forgiving and don't always know when your hands are off.
  • The exact time periods involves are entirely software-controlled and there may be configuration differences between the Telluride and Palisade, even though the two use the hardware and software.
  • As the NHA begins coming out with more guidelines and rules on semi-autonomous technologies, I expect that both Hyundai and Kia will adjust these settings as part of required scheduled maintenance campaigns. As soon as someone gets in an accident with their hands off the wheel, the "few seconds" the manual refers to will get readjusted to something lower.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hey grimzecho - Thanks for your discussion points –

(If you haven’t seen it yet), I ran across a very interesting Hyundai Tech website that really spells out many of the details we are looking for. This article seems to indicate that there will be a standard set in 2021 that exactly spells out how long the vehicle will “auto-steer” hands-off (my words), before it demands the driver take over. (Currently it seems to be variable (and generous), possibility depending upon many factors).

Understanding ADAS Technology: Convenience Features - Hyundai Motor Group TECH

I agree with you that as stupid drivers mis-use this ADAS technology some Government will step in and regulate issues like how long hands-off. But if you note in this article, it doesn’t seem to say that it would be retroactive, which seems to indicate to me, if you really like away the current 2020 models work, better get one before they screw it up in 2021!

Regarding your points, the HDA does seem to add extra time to the auto-resume timing – but this really drives me nuts – it seems the opposite of how it should behave. In other words, here’s how it appears to behave to me:

When “auto-stopped” on a 25mph road (HDA: Off) – only allow 3 secs before preventing any auto-resume
(I guess because it must be more dangerous to auto-accelerate to 25mph)

When “auto-stopped” on a 70mph road (HDA: On) – allow much more time (30 secs?) before preventing auto-resume
(I guess because it must be less dangerous to auto-accelerate to 70mph)???????

(SEEMS BACKWARDS TO ME)!
 

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Regarding your points, the HDA does seem to add extra time to the auto-resume timing – but this really drives me nuts – it seems the opposite of how it should behave. In other words, here’s how it appears to behave to me:

When “auto-stopped” on a 25mph road (HDA: Off) – only allow 3 secs before preventing any auto-resume
(I guess because it must be more dangerous to auto-accelerate to 25mph)

When “auto-stopped” on a 70mph road (HDA: On) – allow much more time (30 secs?) before preventing auto-resume
(I guess because it must be less dangerous to auto-accelerate to 70mph)???????

(SEEMS BACKWARDS TO ME)!
It has nothing to do with the max possible speed of the road. It's because on HDA-capable roads, Hyundai knows for sure that you're on a highway, and that it's a highway for which they have enough GPS data to trust the car to navigate it by itself. Think of it another way: suppose you're using SCC on a road that's not a highway and isn't HDA-enabled, and the car brings you to a stop because there's a stop sign or a red light (by that, I mean that the car in front of you stops - I'm fully aware that the Palisade can't detect red lights and stop signs). Letting the car move by itself for 30s after it has stopped means that it could run a red light. Or move forward at a stop sign, following the car in front, without waiting for another car, whose turn it is to cross the intersection, to go through. Obviously, that only happens when drivers don't pay attention to what they're doing, but you know how that goes...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Wait – WHAT?
( "and the car brings you to a stop because there's a stop sign or a traffic light.”)

(SCC does not stop for Stop Signs or Traffic Lights. Right?)
(So there is never a situation like your 1st example (there’s always a “lead vehicle” in front of you that has triggered the SCC to stop you.)

But I think your 2nd example is interesting to consider – I’m thinking you mean like a 4-way Stop Sign intersection (Non-HDA) (Like I encounter many of them here every day). I'd say the standard procedure here in Florida is typically the traffic will "take turns".

So you're saying suppose your lead car (the car ahead of you) stops at the Stop Sign (and your SCC stops your vehicle and you sit there behind him) – then the car to the Right (and/or) left crosses the intersection, (then it's "your sides” turn), the lead car accelerates off leaving you sitting there (in "Hold"). And you're suggesting that if your vehicle were to then automatically accelerate you might hit the crossing vehicle (since its not your turn).

I also get your observation concerning the fact that the ‘system” knows when you are on a limited access freeway (Cause you’re automatically in “HDA” mode) and therefore it "knows" that (likely) there are no 4 Stop Sign Intersections. (GOOD POINT)!

My side of the story is I currently drive a 2018 Mazda CX9 also with Full Stop and Go Cruise EXACTLY LIKE Hyundai’s SCC. My area has multiple 4-Way Stop Intersections, and I drive into them in full “SCC” daily. I’ve encountered thousands of these 4-Stop intersections in “SCC” mode - here's a normal example...

Lead Vehicle stops – my SCC stops me.
Lead Vehicle waits 8-10 secs for cross traffic to clear.
Lead Vehicle accelerates across (Mine doesn’t move because it has timed-out)
Now I’m sitting 20 feet short of the Stop Sign (Cars behind me waiting for me to creep-ahead)
I “resume" (Slowly - as all SCC systems do) and manually brake at the Stop Sign
(Now I’m totally out of “SCC” active mode) since my Mazda does not have "Brake hold" (other than the auto-hold built into the SCC) – so I do not know how it might assist in this situation.
When it’s my turn, I manually accelerate and touch “Resume”
As I think about all this I think I can say that if the “auto-resume” never timed out, Or if it remained “active" for the 30 secs (as it does on HDA roads), my behavior at the 4-Stop Sign would be exactly the same - no?

Lead Vehicle stops – my SCC stops me.
Lead Vehicle waits 8-10 secs for cross traffic to clear.
Lead Vehicle accelerates across - mine automatically starts slowly accelerating.
I manually brake at the Stop Sign
(Now I’m totally out of “SCC” active mode)
When it’s my turn, I manually accelerate and touch “Resume”
Anyway – thanks for giving me more insights to consider!
 

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Wait – WHAT?
( "and the car brings you to a stop because there's a stop sign or a traffic light.”)

(SCC does not stop for Stop Signs or Traffic Lights. Right?)
(So there is never a situation like your 1st example (there’s always a “lead vehicle” in front of you that has triggered the SCC to stop you.)
Obviously, I meant that there's a car in front of you that stops due to a red light or stop sign. I am fully aware that the Palisade can't detect red lights and stop signs. I'll edit my message above to state the obvious...

But I think your 2nd example is interesting to consider – I’m thinking you mean like a 4-way Stop Sign intersection (Non-HDA) (Like I encounter many of them here every day). I'd say the standard procedure here in Florida is typically the traffic will "take turns".
Yes, that's what I mean. But that also applies to the first example, a red light: what if the light changes as you get there? The car in front of you may have time to make it, but you'd be running the red light if your car started following the other car in front of you.

So you're saying suppose your lead car (the car ahead of you) stops at the Stop Sign (and your SCC stops your vehicle and you sit there behind him) – then the car to the Right (and/or) left crosses the intersection, (then it's "your sides” turn), the lead car accelerates off leaving you sitting there (in "Hold"). And you're suggesting that if your vehicle were to then automatically accelerate you might hit the crossing vehicle (since its not your turn).
Yes

I also get your observation concerning the fact that the ‘system” knows when you are on a limited access freeway (Cause you’re automatically in “HDA” mode) and therefore it "knows" that (likely) there are no 4 Stop Sign Intersections. (GOOD POINT)!
Exactly

[Hypothetical Scenarios]
The right answer to your various scenarios is: auto-resume after more than 3 seconds would be bad. You don't want that.

There are plenty of roads that are not highways (or limited-access freeways to be more accurate) and are not HDA-enabled, but have long stretches between red lights, where cruise control is useful to have. But it's a good thing that auto-resume only works for 3s after stopping. If you're stopped for longer than that, there's probably a good reason why and you don't want the car to start moving again by itself.

So to get back to your original point: the 3s vs 30s difference has nothing to do with the max speed of the road you're on, but a lot more to do with the type of road you're on.
 

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My side of the story is I currently drive a 2018 Mazda CX9 also with Full Stop and Go Cruise EXACTLY LIKE Hyundai’s SCC
As someone that had that generation cx9 and now has a palisade, I can tell you that the mazda's system does not compare in the least bit with the Hyundai's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Anyway - back on the other subject...

Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion.

My opinion will remain that when one is sitting in an endless “Traffic Jam” (where the traffic creeps along 3-6mph and stops every 3-5 seconds and pauses 2-10 seconds or so) – it makes no difference if that road is a 20mph road or a 70mph road. (You’re still crawling along) and having to endlessly “resume" in one case and not in another doesn’t make any sense to me.
 

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it makes no difference if that road is a 20mph road or a 70mph road
Would you agree that while speed limit is irrelevant, there is an argument for why it may be different between a controlled access road and one with stops/intersections? Particularly in the case of stop signs and people turning right on reds?
 

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Would you agree that while speed limit is irrelevant, there is an argument for why it may be different between a controlled access road and one with stops/intersections? Particularly in the case of stop signs and people turning right on reds?
Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying. The type of road matters.

Allowing cars to resume moving by themselves on any road is only going to result in accidents caused by idiots who think that such a feature allows them to look at their phone while the car drives itself. The same kind of idiots who think Tesla's autopilot is an actual autopilot and that you can watch movies or sleep in your car while it's driving. Not saying you're one of them, @HockEYE, but you know these people are out there and would abuse the system. At least we can use auto-hold in traffic jams. I'm good with that.
 

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Regarding your points, the HDA does seem to add extra time to the auto-resume timing – but this really drives me nuts – it seems the opposite of how it should behave. In other words, here’s how it appears to behave to me:

When “auto-stopped” on a 25mph road (HDA: Off) – only allow 3 secs before preventing any auto-resume
(I guess because it must be more dangerous to auto-accelerate to 25mph)
My initial thoughts on this were the same. It's not often that I'm in stop-and-go traffic on the highway (although driving back to Denver after skiing in the mountains is the exception --- almost always stop and go on the weekends), whereas I would really like to be able to react more passively during gird lock on city streets. But after giving it some thought, as others have stated, the fact that Hyundai knows it is on a highway (a.k.a controlled access way) eliminates a lot of dangerous situations with auto-resume cruise control.

Take the following scenario, which I think is pretty common:
  • engage SCC on a lightly busy street. Start following the vehicle in front of you
  • red traffic light; lead vehicle stops, you auto stop behind it
  • you know this is a long f-ing traffic light ... good two or three minutes and so you start to tune out just a bit...maybe read a text message on your phone, maybe engage more in a conversation with the passenger
  • 20 seconds go by and then the lead car realizes that he actually needs to turn right at the light, turns on his signal, sees no cross traffic, and makes a right turn.
  • Your SCC system hasn't timed out, so the vehicle resumes, and since it is now the lead vehicle, begins to accelerate to the set SCC speed
  • You've been using an SCC for a while and are accustomed to this. Maybe you think the light has changed, or maybe you are just a second too slow. Before you know it you've moved into the cross-walk at best, or run the red light at worst.
I'm just glad that the SCC and lane centering engage on any street and at any speed (in sharp contrast to many other systems, such as the Cadillac). The manual says the system only functions below 95 MPH, but there are some YouTube reviews saying that it won't disengage at 95 .... lol, now there's a fun test.

Hyundai knows for sure that you're on a highway, and that it's a highway for which they have enough GPS data to trust the car to navigate it by itself
As far as I'm aware, the car doesn't do anything with the actual GPS highway data, at least not yet. The GPS simply tells the car that it is on a controlled access way, but doesn't provide any other information that the automation system makes use of. But simply knowing that the vehicle is on a highway gives the software a lot of information, which is what I think you meant?

My opinion will remain that when one is sitting in an endless “Traffic Jam” (where the traffic creeps along 3-6mph and stops every 3-5 seconds and pauses 2-10 seconds or so) – it makes no difference if that road is a 20mph road or a 70mph road. (You’re still crawling along) and having to endlessly “resume" in one case and not in another doesn’t make any sense to me.
Even if the car gave you 30s or more to auto-resume, there are other things holding it back from working well in urban gridlock. The most prominent is something you already alluded to on your CX9, which is the rate of acceleration once the SCC resumes (either automatically or by tapping the accelerator). In city traffic, most people will get annoyed if it takes you 10 seconds to get up to 35 MPH. And due to the dramatic impact that traffic lights have on city traffic congestion, keeping that much separation between you and the vehicle in front of you is a strong contributor to gridlock. In highway grid-lock, vehicle separation is much less of an issue, and cars are often comfortable with there being a two-car gap between vehicles. Instinctively we know that filling that gap by changing lanes doesn't really improve our "position", especially when the gridlock lasts for the entire distance between highway exits.

Even with a more forgiving timeout value, in city gridlock I want to accelerate as soon as I can, both to help lessen the traffic congestion, and to "guard" my position least someone from another lane uses the opening the conservative SCC acceleration leaves. As such, I imagine I will become accustomed to engaging SCC, coming to a stop, then just hitting the accelerator enough to quickly get to a comfortable distance behind the lead vehicle (couple seconds max), then let SCC take back over and do its thing.

On highway gridlock, I'm much more open to just letting the system work the entire time, only making sure that I'm aware enough to notice lane markers and sudden changes.
 

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As far as I'm aware, the car doesn't do anything with the actual GPS highway data, at least not yet. The GPS simply tells the car that it is on a controlled access way, but doesn't provide any other information that the automation system makes use of. But simply knowing that the vehicle is on a highway gives the software a lot of information, which is what I think you meant?
Well, we know HDA can use the speed limit data from the navigation database, since the auto-speed-adjustement thing is a feature (not a great one, but it is a feature). So HDA is more than just knowing you're on a limited-access freeway.

We now also know that Hyundai is starting to make use of curve data to automatically slow down the car in sharp curves, regardless of what speed the SCC is set to. This isn't available on the Palisade, but it is on the new Sonata.

Truth is, we don't know what data the HDA algorithm looks at. We don't know what info about a given road Hyundai wants to have in order to make it HDA-enabled. The limited-access highway closest to my house was not HDA-enabled when we bought our Palisade. After the first map update, it became HDA-capable. But I know the speed limit data was already there before the update. So what changed? We don't know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Gentleman – you all make good points on why it may make sense to allow for longer "auto-resume intervals” on limited-access freeways, than local roads.

(And I appreciate the fact that you do not think I am the type of idiot that would abuse the system – Thanks!). I'm a retired GM Engineer/Manager with 30+ years at the GM Tech Center and later founder of a Computer Design software company). (So I do tend to have opinions on technical matters).

While I see and respect your point of view, I am also aware that there are others who see this issue differently. My understanding is that the acknowledged leader in this technology (Tesla) doesn’t “time-out” resume, nor does the after-market product “openpilot" from Comma.ai). Also I believe that I have read that in some of their new 2021 vehicles, Mercedes-Benz has lengthened their "auto-resume interval” to 30 seconds. (Do not know if this only applies to limited-access highways). Anyway there’s room for more than one way of thinking on this.

I guess much of this depends upon your personal driving environment, I do know (from reading in other forums about this), that folks like me, who sit daily in endless bumper-to- bumper traffic crawling along on local roads, see this issue more like I do. Even just increasing that "auto-resume interval” from 3-4 secs to 8-10 secs would dramatically increase its usefulness with minimum downsides.
 

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Gentleman – you all make good points on why it may make sense to allow for longer "auto-resume intervals” on limited-access freeways, than local roads.

(And I appreciate the fact that you do not think I am the type of idiot that would abuse the system – Thanks!). I'm a retired GM Engineer/Manager with 30+ years at the GM Tech Center and later founder of a Computer Design software company). (So I do tend to have opinions on technical matters).

While I see and respect your point of view, I am also aware that there are others who see this issue differently. My understanding is that the acknowledged leader in this technology (Tesla) doesn’t “time-out” resume, nor does the after-market product “openpilot" from Comma.ai). Also I believe that I have read that in some of their new 2021 vehicles, Mercedes-Benz has lengthened their "auto-resume interval” to 30 seconds. (Do not know if this only applies to limited-access highways). Anyway there’s room for more than one way of thinking on this.

I guess much of this depends upon your personal driving environment, I do know (from reading in other forums about this), that folks like me, who sit daily in endless bumper-to- bumper traffic crawling along on local roads, see this issue more like I do. Even just increasing that "auto-resume interval” from 3-4 secs to 8-10 secs would dramatically increase its usefulness with minimum downsides.
I get what you're saying about traffic jams and wanting to increase the auto-resume duration. I think the better answer is to combine this tech with others, such as cameras that recognize signs and lights. Those systems do exist already (actually, Mercedes might be one of the companies using them). This would make a longer stop-&-go resume safer by adding other variables into the mix.

Random data points:
  • It's 3s for Ford as well, I believe.
  • I'm not familiar with Mercedes at all, so I can't comment.
  • Tesla is... well... it's Tesla. They call their tech "autopilot" (it's not and it's misleading to non-tech people - just look at people who sleep or watch movies in Teslas), they don't monitor driver attention beyond hands-on-wheels... etc. I love that they innovate and move the industry forward, and they have a very good self-driving system, but I don't love their implementation of the technology. A lot of corner-cutting and overselling.
 
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